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Message Archive: Messages 3201 - 3250



3250. Circus industry, 26 Jan 2010 - Hello all, I am writing a case study about the circus industry for my MBA. Any assistance you could provide would be helpful. I would like to address the following:
Was there an attractiveness for new competitors to enter the industry, in the 1980’s?
What strategies exist for entering the market?
Can you tell me about competition, how they compete and with whom?
Your rapid response is appreciated, Hardy DeLay. Reply to this message, replies go to this board, not to the message sender.

    Reply: 27 Jan 2010 - The quick way to answer your questions is to identify some veterans of the era you're studying and to determine if they'll reveal inside information. Another route is to read trade coverage of the time, in Amusement Business, Circus Report, White Tops, Bandwagon, etc. Work with your college or university librarian to determine the closest repository for these journals. I'd caution you to gain a firm grasp of the industry's history in the era in question before tackling the vets, or you may find yourself unable to grasp the depth and breadth of what they tell you. Asking the right questions will also prove difficult, as will ferreting out the value of conflicting stories and outright opinions. Fred Dahlinger

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3249. Tacoma, WA ca 1934-35, 26 Jan 2010 - I am looking for any information about an accident in Tacoma Wa. around 1934 or 1935. My 80 yr. old uncle seems to recall watching the "big top" being broken down when the main pole got away from the crew and fell onto someone's head killing them. Can anyone corroborate this story? Any information would be much appreciated. Sincerely, Janet Clanton. Reply to this message, replies go to this board, not to the message sender.

    Reply: 27 Jan 2010 - The late Mike Sporrer extensively scanned newspapers in the State of Washington for circus activity. His research notes were donated to the Circus World Museum library. You can contact them and ask if they can locate the engagements that he found for Tacoma. His files may be organized both by circus and year, and by the city. You might also check the Tacoma library, to determine if they have a vertical file on shows; you might get lucky and learn that they have a finding aid or clipping. One can also scan the Tacoma newspapers, if you can gain access to the microfilm, directly or by interlibrary loan. Sporrer also penned an article about circus activity in Seattle, which was published in the CFA magazine "White Tops." It's in the Nov-Dec 1967 issue, starting on page 22. If a circus played Seattle it may have also routed into Tacoma. It would provide you with a working list of titles and the dates when they were in the local area. From that you could go into the Tacoma newspapers and obtain further information quite rapidly. Ralph Decker is a long-time circus enthusiast in Tacoma and you might contact him about your search. Fred Dahlinger

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3248. Andy Graves, 25 Jan 2010 - I am looking for Andy Graves born in Trenton, Tennesse about 1920. Left home to join circus at age 15. About 1935. Father's name was John. He had sister's named Ella Mae, Mary. He also had brother's named Max and John. He was the oldest. Donna. Reply to this message, replies go to this board, not to the message sender.

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3247. Pinito Del Oro, 24 Jan 2010 - I have not found much biographical information about Pinito Del Oro, who performed with Ringling Circus for a number of years as a trapeze artist and remembered for hanging from her hair I believe. I understand she had a serious accident accident that ended her career? Can you provide me any information about her? Thanks in advance. Terry Swindol, Tupelo, MS. Reply to this message, replies go to this board, not to the message sender.

    Reply: 30 Jan 2010 - Pinito Del Oro’s real name is Cristina Maria del Pino Segura. Born in Spain on November 6, 1931 she was with a number of European circuses and at the age of 18 was brought to the US where she spent the next seven seasons with the Ringling Bros and Barnum & Bailey Circus (1950-56). After Ringling-Barnum closed in July 1956 she toured as a featured act with Polack Bros indoor circus prior to returning to Europe as a headliner with Circus Schumann. Pinito Del Oro’s trapeze act is among the acts featured in the Cecil B. DeMille movie “The Greatest Show on Earth” and was memorable for her trapeze head-stand without a net. She had three very serious falls – in 1948, 1958 and 1968 and suffered many broken bones – including a fractured skull. In February of 1952 she fell during an indoor engagement with Orrin Davenport’s Shrine Circus at Detroit’s State Fair “Coliseum”, but her injuries were relatively minor (dislocated ankle and pulled ligament). She retired from performing in 1970. Chris Berry, circusposters@gmail.com

    Reply: 13 Feb 2010 - Hello: Actually, Pinito del Oro never appears in the movie The Greatest Show on Earth, neither in any distant shots or close-ups. John Ringling North demanded that Cecil B. DeMille not shoot any footage of del Oro for use in the movie. North considered del Oro to be his Superstar of the era and did not want the movie-going public to see her without paying admission to the circus. North also had the desire for a relationship with del Oro outside of the ring, but apparently she was not interested. North was a major socialite of the era and was often seen out on the town with various actresses, etc. but del Oro was never interested - possibly due to her catholic upbringing or possibly because her brother, who was a wirewalker, was also on the show for the first years she was with the show. He would have had to chaperone her on any social outings as a family obligation and that would have certainly cramped North’s style. Although the Betty Hutton character is shown on a head-balancing trapeze, del Oro never doubled for her in the movie, and Hutton’s character was never shown doing any head-balancing tricks in distant shots- rather only in close-ups where a harness rigging was used to hold her upside down. All of Hutton’s distant shots show her on a regular swinging trapeze and in those shots her double was La Norma Fox. For the one-arm planges, supposedly Maryse Begary doubled for Hutton, but Begary would not appear with the Ringling show until some years later, so whether she was brought in for the shooting or not, I’ve never been able to confirm. Another head-balancing trapeze star of the era was Tiny Gallagher aka Galla Shawn, but she did not appear with the Ringling show until the early 1960’s. Galla Shawn had bleached blond hair at least, but both del Oro and Begary were Brunettes and it is doubtful that any performer could have done head-balancing trapeze wearing a wig! - Neil Cockerline

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3246. Ruthstrom Family Band, 22 Jan 2010 - Hello, just curious to see if anyone knew anything about the Ruthstrom Family Band. I have a few photos from the family of them with an un-named circus, was told they traveled in vaudeville a lot, and may have performed for the grand opening of The Jazz Man in New York. Anyone familiar with the name? Thanks much, Anne Ruthstrom. Reply to this message, replies go to this board, not to the message sender.

    Reply: 23 Feb 2013 - Anne, My grandfather was Sven Ruthstrom. I have several photos of the band, and one of the band in a group picture with the entire circus. Scott Ruthstrom

    Reply: 13 Dec 2010 - Anne - Call me I might have some information for you. Walter Ruthstrom

    Reply: 03 May 2012 - Ann, was wondering if you could share any information about the Ruthstrom Family Band. A photograph of the band in Springfield, Massachusetts, turned up in our archives. On the book there is a handwritten note: Sept. 24, 9-9:45, Radio Sta. N.B.Z. Hotel Kimball Springfield, Massachusetts. Catherine G. OBrion, State Law Library/Supreme Court of Virginia

    Reply: 03 Oct 2016 - The last member of the band died in July, 2015. My dad was the youngest son. Laura Ruthstrom

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3245. Billboard online, 21 Jan 2010 - Has anyone been using The Billboard from 1940's up? My computer crashed and I don't know how to get to the web site. They contain excellent information on the old circuses and carnivals. Any help would be appreciated. Jane. Reply to this message, replies go to this board, not to the message sender.

    Reply: 22 Jan 2010 - Hi! Go to google. Click on "others", click on "books". Type in "billboard". Tom H.

    Reply: 22 Jan 2010 - Google books has scanned in most of the Billboard issues from 1942 on. Just search google books for Billboard and you can browse through all thier issues. Hope that helps! - Cailee

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3244. Robert 'Buck' Steele, New Orleans (Metarie), LA, 21 Jan 2010 - Hi, Can you help me be in touch with Robert 'Buck" Steele, (trick rider - and Circus Train promoter) his wife, or any of his children (who were also show people). The Steele's and I were very close for a time, when they lived in the French Quarter. I'd like to know how he is. If he is no longer with us, I'd like to pay my respects. Thank you, Derek Sorrentino. Reply to this message, replies go to this board, not to the message sender.

    Reply: 30 Mar 2011 - Has anyone found information about Buck Steele? John

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3243. Wagon carvers, 20 Jan 2010 - Hi, I'm researching wagon design and was wondering if anyone had any information on who the some of the carvers were, what training/background they had, and some of the techniques they used. Any info on Spanger Bros. would be especially appreciated! Thanks, Alison. Reply to this message, replies go to this board, not to the message sender.

    Reply: 21 Jan 2010 - The best discussion in print about the craftsmen that furnished carved, wooden artwork for circus wagons is found in Fred Fried's book "Artists In Wood." It reviews the principal New York carvers, especially Samuel A. Robb and his predecessors in New York City. Fried references two 1880s articles, one in the "New York Times" http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=
    9805E0DF1239E033A25750C0A96E9C94619ED7CF and another in "Harper's Weekly," that provide background on carvers.
        The Moellers in Baraboo, WI typically utilized the Milwaukee Ornamental Carving Company, the principals of which were Germans, Kuehn and Papke. They converted over to ornamental plaster work in later years. They and their firm are discussed in a "Bandwagon" article about the Ringling Bros. Bell Wagon. Sullivan & Eagle of Peru, IN had their own in-house carvers. They are covered in passing in "Bandwagon" articles about various wagons they produced. The same is true of the Beggs operation of Kansas City and Herbert L. Witt of Morristown, TN, who are covered by "Bandwagon" pieces. The carvers utilized by the Cincinnati wagon builders have yet to be determined with specific knowledge. There is some discussion of those employed directly by the Bode Wagon Company in a "Bandwagon" article about that firm. Those that furnished figures and scrolls to Henry Ohlsen and George Schmidt remain unknown at this time.
        Spanjer [with a "j"] Bros. was a lettering, signage and carving supply house with sites in Newark, NJ and Chicago, IL. They were reportedly founded in Newark in 1897. The last I heard the Chicago plant had been abandoned, open to invasion. They later subcontracted lettering work, some to a Grand Rapids firm, C. G. Witvoet, starting circa 1932. http://www.cgwitvoet.com/company/history.html. One posting suggests that their founding was related to a carver who did work for Barnum and that they did work for all the principal circuses. I suspect that there's some truth in that, but it likely revolves around a commission that they received from Samuel Robb to provide some of the 1903 B&B wagon carvings.
        A biography of one of the founders and owners, William Henry Spanjer, can be found on pages 243-244 of: http://books.google.com/books?id=
    iY0MAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA244&dq=spanjer+bros.&lr=&cd=20#v=onepage&q=&f=false. The brother was Henry J. Spanjer.
        On-line is a listing for Spanjer Signs, 189 Chrystie Street #2, New York, NY 10002, 212-473-2507. They also have a website: http://spanjersigns.com/ This appears to be a different firm, but perhaps there was a family relationship?
        Their catalogue contents suggest that Spanjer was contracted to supply some of the carved work for several traveling show vehicle commissions. These works are not confirmed in references in show trade journals, suggesting that they were sub-contractors. Only three show orders can be associated with the firm; I would discount more extensive attributions by Chindahl and Plowden. Spanjer carving work was applied to: [1] the 1903 Barnum & Bailey "Two Hemispheres" Bandwagon [some or all of the national coats of arms], which was likely a sub-contract from Samuel Robb; [2] several large bandwagons and tableaus furnished for 1910 by the Leonhardt Wagon Mfg. Company of Baltimore to the Norris & Rowe circus; [3] Indian and bison head carvings for two c.1910 Miller Bros. & Arlington Wild West tableaus, builder and date unknown.
        The B&B Two Hemispheres is well-known. The largest of the Norris & Rowe bandwagons is seen at the following link, but with a history that requires verification: http://bucklesw.blogspot.com/2007/03/barnum-bailey-floats-and-tableaux-9.html. A second tableau is found on one of the Spanjer catalogue pages listed below, with two leaping animals on the side. Also illustrated on the same page is one of the 101 Ranch tableaus, with the second Ranch tableau seen at: http://www.flickr.com/photos/8313942@N07/3745871262/.
        Two pages from one Spanjer catalogue were reprinted in C. P. Fox's book "Circus Parades," pages 78-79. He dated them to 1900, but they are from no earlier than 1909-1910. Spanjer printed numerous catalogues, some of which are preserved in various collections [Smithsonian's Cooper-Hewitt in NYC has one http://siris-libraries.si.edu/ipac20/ipac.jsp?uri=full=
    3100001~!539935!0#focus]. Rutgers University has 1909 and 1927 editions. http://www.libraries.rutgers.edu/rul/libs/scua/sinclair/catalogs_n.shtml#newark
        These links will lead to several catalogue covers and related items posted on-line.
    http://www.theletterheads.com/lhparts/spanjerbros.html
    http://anonymousworks.blogspot.com/2009/09/peek-inside-catalog-of-spanjer-bros.html
    http://www.handletteringforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=759
        A couple Spanjer catalogues were once posted on-line, but the site that hosted them are now defunct. It's possible that you may be able to find them by contacting commentators on one of the above sites. Fred Dahlinger

    Reply: 22 Jan 2010 - Wow! I can't believe how comprehensive a reply this is! Thank you SO much taking the time to list sources too! Alison

    Reply: 23 Jan 2010 - Glad that the material was helpful. I neglected to mention that Spanjer Bros. made at least one much later attempt to obtain outdoor show work, from carnivals. They could supply the wood carvings for show fronts, selected ride cars and decorative trim, etc. They placed an advertisement highlighting "Wood Carving Special Woodwork" in "Billboard," January 5, 1929, page 71. There may be other similar advertisements, but it's unknown if any orders materialized from the activity. This is the only direct Spanjer advertising in a show journal that I recall. Fred Dahlinger

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3242. Harry LaMar, flyer, 20 Jan 2010 - My grandfather was a Flyer with the Lamar/LaMar Troupe, 1910, Barnum and Bailey Circus. He went by "Harry LaMar", given name, Henry R. Hatfield (1888-1966). I have a couple pictures of him then, along with many other circus pictures. Later he and my grandmother, a catcher were with the Segrist Troupe, Ringling Bros, Barnum and Bailey Combined Show. I would love to correspond with anyone that has some information. D.J. Baker, budblossum@aol.com. Reply to this message, replies go to this board, not to the message sender.

    Reply: 25 Jan 2010 - This history of this act is somewhat complicated, but I will try to place it in a nut shell for you. Harry La Mar (Harry Foreman) was the nephew of Edward Foreman, of Bloomington, Illinois. Ed was a flyer with the Flying Fishers, taking the professional name of Ed La Mar. The Fisher troupe was with the Ringling Brothers show for a number of years. In 1906 when Charles Noble, manager of the Flying Fishers, died Ed and Charles Waller took over the management of the act, calling it the La Mar-Fisher troupe. The following year the troupe split up. Ed formed the Troupe La Mar, Waller continued with the Flying Fishers, and Charles Noble's brother, Clyde, formed a vaudeville stage act which he also called the Flying Fishers. All three of these were flying return trapeze acts. I have also found Mr. Hatfield working with Clyde Noble's vaudeville stage act.
        Harry Foreman was born in 1895, and worked with his uncle's act in the early 1900s. He was with the Imperial Vienese troupe with the Ringling show as well, among other acts, in the early 1900s. When his uncle Ed retired from trapeze work to manage a theater in Bloomington, Ed took out an act that he called the Flying La Mars. The Flying La Mars traveled to Australia twice. Harry was a talented flyer, but an even more proficient teacher. He was instrumental in working with the administration of the Bloomington YMCA to establish that venue as a major practice site for circus performance in the early 1900s, and he trained many flyers and catchers there over the years. Harry died in Florida in the 1970s. I would like to know more about Mr. Hatfield as well. Steve Gossard

    Reply: 28 Dec 2010 - Henry R. Hatfield, aka "Harry LaMar" (1888-1966) I had forgot the posting about my grandparents. Grandfather was a flyer, and Nana a catcher. I would truly love to hear from anyone who has information of the, Flying LaMars and the Segrist Troupe. I don't think I have ever heard the names mentioned by Mr. Gossard. But I am still very interested in any information and will be willing to share the pictures I have of the LaMars. Please write me at budblossum@aol.com. Thank you, DJ Baker

    Reply: 03 Jun 2012 - Mr Gossard, I want to thank you for your reply of Jan 2010, I had laid it aside and in cleaning off my desk to day, came across it. I will have to go over my pictures and post cards to see if any of the names you mentioned are there. I have many items that he signed "Harry LaMar" and stationary with the heading the "Flying Hatfields"(I have lots of stuff, wish I had a poster of them) I would love to hear from you again and will be happy to fill you in with pictures and data on Grampa and Grandma, but would prefer to do it in a private e-mail, my add is above. Thanks again, don't get on here to often, busy with work and research. Daundra Baker

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3241. John C. Ray, 20 Jan 2010 - Hi All! I'm looking for any information on a midway designer who worked from the late 20's to the early 1960's. His name was John C. Ray but he also went by Jack Ray. I know he worked as a commercial designer in the film industry and as a consultant for the sets at Radio City Music Hall. I'm interested in learning more about his involvment in the circus/carnival industry. Any information or suggestions on where to look would really be appreciated!! Thanks, Cailee Goulden. Reply to this message, replies go to this board, not to the message sender.

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3240. Spec "Cinderella," Ringling, 19 Jan 2010 - I am looking for any information on the 1916 Ringling Bros. Circus Spec, “Cinderella.” I found some information about the first couple of acts, but I am interested in the entire spec. Is there any additional information available? Thank you! Joel Schilling. Reply to this message, replies go to this board, not to the message sender.

    Reply: 20 Jan 2010 - Dear Mr. Schilling: Some years ago I read a paper on the Ringling “Cinderella” spec at the Circus and Circus History section of the Popular Culture Assn. annual convention. I found nearly everything I needed for my research at the Parkinson Research Center of Circus World Museum, Baraboo. WI. It had programs, couriers, posters, and some photos and clippings. Most important, though, it had a copy of the script used for performances, setting out all the action and actors in a very detailed manner. This alone will probably answer your questions, at least most of them. Erin Foley, the archivist, is very helpful and a delight to work with. I haven’t yet been able to locate the folder with the paper, but if it doesn’t come to light in the next few days I could mail you a printed copy. Michael H. Means (m-jmeans@sbcglobal.net).

    Reply: 21 Jan 2010 - “Cinderella” was actually the Ringling Bros spec in both 1916 and 1917. It consisted of six scenes and opened the performance of the circus during those two seasons. It was produced under the personal direction of Charles Ringling. The story is described in the program as being a combination of many different versions of the fairy tale but focusing on the elements that were most familiar to the majority of people. Scene I was titled “The Fairyland Kingdom – The Proclamation”. Scene II was at the Home of Cinderella and titled “The Transformation”. Scene III was set in “The Streets of the Magic City” and was titled “The Departure. Scene IV took place in the Grand Ballroom and was titled “The Loss of the Slipper”. Scene V was set on The King’s Highway and titled “The Royal Command”. Scene VI was set in the Palace of the King and titled “Triumph of Cinderalla”. The entire and traditional story of Cinderella was told in pantomime. The music was arranged by JJ Richards who also conducted the Ringling band during that time, with scenery designed and painted by Sosman and Landis Co. Costumes were designed by William Crowe and executed by Henderson-Ames Co. The ballet dresses were designed and executed by F. Schoultz with the ballet and stage action under the direction of Ottokar Baktik. Chris Berry circusposters@gmail.com

    Reply: 06 Feb 2010 - Thank you Michael and Chris for your replies to my questions! Joel Schilling

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3239. Circus Archie, clown, 19 Jan 2010 - Hello, Please help me learn more about Archibald Campbell, a circus clown who travelled with John Robinson's Circus in the late 1880s. He has been referred to in family genealogy as "Circus Archie". Archibald Campbell was born in 1830 and died in Redding, California in 1882. Joseph Edward Moseley wrote a book called "Disciples of Christ in Georgia" and on page 196, he discusses Archibald Campbell in this way: "During the Atlanta campaign, General George Stoneman (1822-1894) and about 700 of his Federal raiders were captured by Confederate Cavalrymen and forced to surrender. One of the raiders was Pvt. Archie Campbell, nephew of Alexander Campbell. He was imprisoned at Andersonville with other members of his 14th Illinois Cavalry. He had expected to become a preacher like his famous uncle, but in June, 1854, he left Bethany, Va. (now W. Va.), where he was born, with John Robinson's Circus. A famous clown, he received many privileges while at Andersonville from the Rebel officers with whom he was a favorite. He was released from Andersonville in an exchange of prisoners." Archibald Campbell was also mentioned in a book by Gil Robinson called Old Wagon Show Days (Cincinnati: Brockwell Co., 1925) on page 173. Any information or suggestions on how to find information about Circus Archie is appreciated. Thanks! Cathy Bredlau. Reply to this message, replies go to this board, not to the message sender.

    Reply: 21 Jan 2010 - There's a cameo biography of Campbell in Slout's "Olympians of the Sawdust Circle," on this website. www.circushistory.org/Olympians/OlympiansC1.htm. His obituary in the 1882 "New York Clipper" should also have further information on his career. Since he died in California, it might have been printed a couple weeks after his passing. Your local librarian may be able to obtain the "Clipper" microfilm via interlibrary loan.
        Thayer's "Annals of the American Circus" will trace him from the beginning of his career through 1860. Stuart also wrote about the first camp outfits employed by circuses and you might find it illuminating for Campbell's last show occupation, www.circushistory.org/Thayer/Thayer1d.htm You'll learn a limited amount about Campbell, but you can learn a lot about his times, his peers and other documentation that will establish context and meaning for his life.
        You'll find further information by Googling his name variations, in quotation marks, with the additional words, like circus and clown, to separate out more recent people of the same name.
        There is a large collection of John Robinson circus material in the Cincinnati Historical Society collections. You would likely need to visit there to peruse the holdings for Campbell references. Various digitized newspaper files can be accessed on-line for further information. You might check with local libraries and historical societies, perhaps they can facilitate economical access?
        His career will be largely marked by newspaper ads and reviews, perhaps an interview or two, heralds, couriers and other circus ephemera. Trade cards, cdv images and such things might exist. You might try some older established theatrical collections for his image [NYPL, NYHS, Harvard, etc.]
        There was a lot in common between the preacher in the pulpit and the talking and singing clown in the circus ring. Each had a captive audience, present by personal choice, and wanted to hear what was said by the speaker. They needed to hold the crowd's attention. Both likely spoke against evil in different forms, but on different levels. They may have also offered praise, earthly and ecclesiastical. Learn more about the clown role in Dave Carlyon's biography of Dan Rice. Fred Dahlinger

    Reply: 03 Nov 2011 - The remains of Archie Campbell, the clown, who died at Redding last summer, during a visit of Robinson's Circus, have been removed from the public cemetery to the burial place of the Odd Fellows. Sacramento Daily Union, Volume 16, Number 141, 3 February 1883. Jen

    Reply: 19 Mar 2016 - Hi folks, I'm not a member but I have a correction to make. Or, a question to pose. I have the John Robinson exposition performing Aug. 7, 1890 in Sisson, CA. Later I read in the Sisson paper a copy of a Free Press article which says: The members of the John Robinson Circus paid their respects to the memory of Archie Campbell and the young fellow who was killed by the roman catapault (sic), both of whom are buried in our cemetery, by marching in a body to the sad roll of muffled drums and playing a number of funeral dirges over their graves. Campbell had been their favorite clown. Campbell's death date may be wrong. The 1890 newspaper ad touts: ZENOBIA! Hurled 200 feet through space by ancient Rome's terrific war engine, THE CATAPULT. This is an old email address for me, but the only one that would let me connect with you. Please respond to vgabndo70@gmail.com if you get this. Perry

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3238. Southern Sawdust, 18 Jan 2010 - Does anyone know who has the rights to the old Southern Sawdust magazines? I'm asking for acquaintances across the seas. Bob Cline. Reply to this message, replies go to this board, not to the message sender.

    Reply: 19 Jan 2010 - Hi Bob, Wilson Poarch was a dear friend and wonderful circus fan. I have been trying to find out for the past two years! Regards, Tom Sandow

    Reply: 19 Jan 2010 - Unless L. Wilson Poarch, Jr., the editor/publisher of "Southern Sawdust," or his inheritors sold, assigned or gave the copyrights to "Southern Sawdust" to others, they would be part of his estate, given his legal status as "creator." Typically, the rights endure for "the life of the creator," meaning until the date of their death, plus 75 years thereafter. For example, if Poarch passed away in 2005, his rights would endure to 2080. Thus, you would need to seek out his survivors, learn who inherited his copyrights, etc., if you wanted to secure formal approval for major reprinting, etc.
        A start would be to establish his date of death location [Sarasota, FL?], find an obituary, learn the names of the next of kin, etc. The photography utilized in the magazine came from many different sources. Each one would represent the interests of the image creator, and perhaps the subject of the photograph, if it is a real person. It can become a very tricky and difficult issue to secure formal approval; the result is that much material in libraries and archives has fallen into legal limbo, or represents a risk to the possessor or user if it is published. "Southern Sawdust was published and issued when "intellectual rights" were not yet developed as a legal growth area.
        The entire copyright issue became more complex as a result of Disney's Mickey Mouse persona copyright coming close to falling into the public domain in the recent past. Through the Congressional work of Sonny Bono and others, they were able to push out the envelope of protection for many more years and made clearance almost beyond comprehension to the layman. "Simplified copyright law" fills a ten pound book. Fortunately, there are some exceptions, such as the ability of libraries to make photocopies of a limited number of pages for educational use.
        This posting can also serve as "free advice" to the "creators of writings, photography, art work, etc. Consider the enduring value of your works and if they represent meaningful value you should take proper steps to include them in your estate planning. With proper protection, you can both protect your interests and also enable your survivors to deal with them in a proper way that will assure your works don't go into legal limbo, but become accessible in a responsible way in the future. Fred Dahlinger

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3237. Mr Mistin, 18 Jan 2010 - Many probably remember Mr Mistin, xylophonist on Ringling in 53. He seemed to have disappeared, but another child star, Ralph Heid, worked til a few years ago with the same act. Heid has since passed away and told someone he was not Mistin. I tend to think they were one and the same. Heid had emailed me years back and was interested in a Mistin poster I had and did not deny he was Mistin. So what is the story? Heid made the theme for Circus Renz famous. Thanks, Bob Good. Reply to this message, replies go to this board, not to the message sender.

    Reply: 29 Mar 2015 - About a year or so ago John Pepi and I got to the bottom of the Mistin mystery, more or less. Mistin is alive and lives in Belgium. His son emailed some time back and confirmed this. I am not sure what he did all these years, but the son runs a music production company.
        Heid died some years back. He was not Mistin as I supposed for many years. Their acts as kids were very very similar. I had emailed Heid years back about having a poster of him and meeting him on Ringling and he did not deny it was him. So, I assumed they were one and the same.
        John Pepi did a lot of legwork on getting videos of the two performers, one on Mickey Mouse Club and the other on Abbott and Costello. They were definitely two different kids.
        Both of these kids played the same tunes, dressed very similar, etc. Heid continued to perform until he died on a cruise ship date. His widow lives in Switzerland. So, Mistin is alive and well, but we do not know about his adult career. Bob Good

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3236. Sarasota winter quarters, 18 Jan 2010 - Hello, I'm doing research for a novel I'm writing, set in Sarasota, Florida during the late 1950s. I grew up there at that time, and the Ringling Bros. winter quarters was still there - this figures into my novel. My friend and I used to take riding lessons with Captain William Heyer, whose place was adjacent to the winter quarters - we remember elephants watching us ride from across the street. Anyway, my friend remembers trail riding in that area with her father, next to a large field which she thought was circus property. Horses were turned out there to graze, and also there were discarded carousel horses in the field, along with large, grass-covered mounds. My friend remembers her father telling her that these mounds were the burial sites of elephants. Does anyone know if this would be true? Would the circus have buried dead elephants, and possibly other animals, in a field near the winter quarters? Any information would be greatly appreciated! Thanks, Kay Frydenborg. Reply to this message, replies go to this board, not to the message sender.

    Reply: 19 Jan 2010 - RBBB never owned a carousel. It's a common misconception to associate the ride with a circus. The only season-long affiliation between a carousel operator and major circuses took place in 1915. It was not uncommon for a local carousel operator to erect his ride near a circus lot and to take advantage of the crowd gathered for the ring show. There are also instances wherein an entire carnival was set up for a week-long stand adjacent to the one-day presence of the circus. The idea was the same, take advantage of the thousands of people assembled to see the circus.
        No railroad or motorized carnival that owned one ever met its demise at the Sarasota winter quarters of the circus. Whatever the items that your friend saw amidst the other mounds, they were not merry-go-round figures. One could see the remnants of wooden wagon wheels and axle assemblies strewn about the wagon graveyard.
        Carousels and such could have been abandoned in Tampa, Orlando and Gibsonton, and elsewhere in Florida, which were the locations of carnival winter homes. Conversely, these cities were not known as railroad circus winter quarters.
        Joe Bradbury penned an excellent tribute to the Sarasota quarters in a 1961 issue of the CFA magazine "White Tops," "How Dear to My Heart Are the Memories of Sarasota." [Vol. XXXIV, 2, pages 3, 5-11, 23-26] It was based upon his many annual winter visits to the site and was composed with great nostalgia for all that it represented. I would encourage you to seek it out. Joe published a long series in "White Tops" about RBBB covering 1938 to 1956 inclusive, and you'll find much additional information about the quarters therein. There are many other accounts of the quarters, as well as innumerable photographs.
        Tom Duncan's finely crafted circus novel, "Gus The Great," also includes a visitation to a former circus winter quarters that you might find of interest. It was based upon his visitation of Fred Buchanan's place in Granger, Iowa. If you haven't read it, RBBB veterinarian Dr. J. Y. Henderson's memoir would also be an excellent read for your work. Good luck with your novel. Fred Dahlinger

    Reply: 09 Feb 2010 - Thanks for the information! I just now am finding it, sorry to be late to respond. This is very helpful. Perhaps it's as you say, and the discarded carousel horses my friend remembers were from some carnival that had set up in the area of the winter quarters; I have no idea and didn't see these discarded horses for myself. What about the question of whether elephants or other animals would have been buried there? This seems unlikely to me, but I don't know the answer. Thanks again! I am hoping to track down the articles you mentioned, and have ordered a copy of "Gus the Great." I do have a copy of Dr. Henderson's memoir. Kay Frydenborg

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3235. Circus canvas man, 17 Jan 2010 - I am looking to contact any relative of a Clyde Beatty Cole Brothers canvas man named Phil Hill. Bob Koch. Reply to this message, replies go to this board, not to the message sender.

    Reply: 10 Feb 2010 - If you mean Bill Hill perhaps I can help you he is my Uncle. E-mail me direct at: HD15218BUD@webtv.net

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3234. Terrell Jacobs, Clyde Beatty, 17 Jan 2010 - My Name is Andrew Wightman and I'm from Charlottetown PEI Canada and I'm a really big fan of the circus. But my question is did Terrell Jacobs who trained more than 50 Big cats for the Ringling Brothers & Barnum and Bailey train the big cats the same way as Clyde Beatty or did he do it like the Hagenbachs did? Andrew. Reply to this message, replies go to this board, not to the message sender.

    Reply: 18 Jan 2010 - Good Afternoon, It is very safe to say that the animals back then were not trained in the style of the Alfred Court type trainers that followed. All these animals were captured in the jungle as medium to full grown cats that had never seen a human being face to face before. Terrell Jacobs did in fact train a great many lions to work together in the arena, but having four or five out of 50 do anything isn't much of a training process. The majority of the act consisted of getting that many animals in the arena, seated, a fight or two in the process and then getting them all out the arena again. Clyde Beatty was much better at getting lions and tigers working together and they did perform a better variety of behaviors. Where as Terrell Jacobs had large groups to work with and an amazing amount of guts to do what he did, Clyde Beatty was an incomparable showman, far and beyond that of Mr. Jacobs.
        It should also be remembered that the Ringling show wanted Terrell Jacobs to throw together the Black leopard act and got all these full grown animals straight from the jungles. Terrell "failed" to produce a completed act for several reasons, including not enough time ( In all fairness, he worked hard at trying to train them ) not understanding that leopards and lions don't respond or behave the same ways and the leopards were much more aggressive and lightning quick. Frankly, when you look back on it all, its a wonder he even survived.
        Having never seen the Hagenbeck methods of the 1920's and 1930's that you are referring to myself, I can only express my opinion that NO, they were not trained the same. Bob Cline

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3233. For Tom Sandow, 15 Jan 2010 - To Tom Sandow, my uncle is Howell Cavanagh and his dad was Mickey the clown. I have told him that I read the information on the board and he would be pleased to be in touch with you. If you would like to have his contact phone number please email me on jpcsbartlett@aol.com, Jackie Bartlett. Reply to this message, replies go to this board, not to the message sender.

    Reply: 16 Jan 2010 - This is wonderful news Jackie and thank you so much. Please give my regards to Hawell. I will e-mail to you. Besy Best, Tom

    Reply: 13 Apr 2010 - The update of this story is quite amazing. I have not seen Howell since 1950 and just a remembrance yet I have just found out that he is resident in my own town of Bridlington and has lived less than one mile from my house for the past eight years! Tom Sandow

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3232. E. J. Hayden Co., 15 Jan 2010 - Would really appreciate any info.(when in business etc) on E. J. Hayden Co. I have a large 10' x 12' banner for poker cheats, on canvass, illustrated. Thanks, petekeim@comcast.net. Reply to this message, replies go to this board, not to the message sender.

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3231. John M. Burke, 14 Jan 2010 - Can anyone help Mr. Campbell across the seas in learning about the Buffalo Bill tour there? He is specifically looking for info on these past emails:
    I've been doing a bit of research could you find me any info on John M. Burke as he may be the person my aunt Agnes married thanks.
    And this email: It was Scotland in the early 20th century Agnes McDermott my great aunt I believe John M. Burke was Buffalo Bill's manager for thirty years and he was in Scotland. All I would like to know was my aunt Agnes married to him as we where told. She visit my grandfather her brother in an open carriage with four circus horses drawing it. All the neighborhood turned out to see them, and my mother who was a child said she had to tilt her head to walk up the entrance to my grandfathers flat as her hat feathers were so big. My mother always told us she married Buffalo Bill's manager. Many Thanks, Bob Cline. Reply to this message, replies go to this board, not to the message sender.

    Reply: 19 Jan 2010 - Bob Cline: In my 16 years of research of Buffalo Bill, I have only come across one article talking about Major Burke and a potential marriage. In the Omaha Daily Bee, March 18, 1894, Page 17 col 7 the following is printed:
        Quote. Major Burke Engaged. New York, March 17 – Major John E. Burke, who has helped to make Buffalo Bill famous and rich, is to marry. The lady is said to be Mlle. Corrine Le Cauer, who was in charge of the French Exhibit in the Manufactures building at the World’s fair. The ceremony will take place some time in early summer. End quote. I have never run across any information that in fact Burke ever did marry. Richard Georgian

    Reply: 19 Jan 2010 - The search for Burke's story is difficult, as his life and death were both in the shadow cast by his hero, Buffalo Bill, and he apparently left no substantial personal papers. Burke's death followed shortly after that of his beloved friend and boss, William F. Cody. Cody died on January 10, 1917 and Burke passed away on April 12, 1917, per the Philadelphia (PA) "Evening News." The 1916 date given in some accounts is incorrect. This hometown newspaper did not note any next of kin, but one might check other Philly papers for alternative coverage. One can also check the obituaries in "Variety," "Billboard" and "New York Clipper" for Burke, perhaps they mention family.
        If a wife and children didn't survive him, or if they split earlier, a search for a spouse might be most expeditiously found via genealogical and biographical search methods, such as www.ancestry.com. The site does include British and American marriage documentation. If the person isn't a subscriber, they might be able to gain access via a local library or genealogical support group. Fred Dahlinger

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3230. Bond Bros. Circus, 14 Jan 2010 - Family lore of circus performers, someone died and they didn’t perform anymore. I once connected with a circus history site who said that a childin audience had been hurt and suggested I contact the newspaper. Needless to say lost the info. Today fund info in the Bond Bros Circus and don’t’ know if same. Could be performers were named Bond. Thanks in advance. Lea. Reply to this message, replies go to this board, not to the message sender.

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3229. Delno brothers, 12 Jan 2010 - My name is Dayle Gray and my great grandfather, Nathaniel Popham (went by Eddie), ran away from medical school to join the circus - I would guess sometime between 1910-1915. He did high wire and tapped, and was in an act called the Delno brothers, with someone else who he was not related to, but looked like. I am not sure what circus this was. I know that by 1915 he had left the circus. He was originally from Missouri and ended up in Alberta, Canada. Any information you might have about this would be appreciated. Thanks! Reply to this message, replies go to this board, not to the message sender.

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3228. Circus memorabilia help, 11 Jan 2010 - From time to time this message board receives inquires regarding circus memorabilia people have. This is a topic not permitted on our message board. These are people who have no knowledge regarding how to assess the items they have. Can you assist me in providing some basic information for people who have no experience in this aspect? How they might go about obtaining information on evaluating the memorabilia they have? Judy Griffin, CHS webmaster. Reply to this message, replies go to this board, not to the message sender.

    Reply: 15 Jan 2010 - There are several possibilities to help you. To start with, eBay has the largest online listing of Circus related items anywhere. You might actually find what you are looking for. Some very nice circus memorabilia has appeared here over the years. In all fairness, the best price is always found in the completed items ( after the auction has ended ) as so many items are bid on at the very last second. EBay has also "Cheapened" the collecting of circus memorabilia by allowing anyone and everyone to offer anything they find for sale. As a result many people get someone's lifelong collection and plunder it in lots and groups with no knowledge of what they have, using incorrect dates and names in their sale descriptions just to make some money.
        You can talk to fellow circus collectors and try to find out what they feel something is worth. That's not an exact science but many people will remember what they paid for a certain item when they got theirs. In some rare instances, there are only a couple of that item in existence that anyone knows about such as a rare route book or poster perhaps. Actual filled out and signed contracts and checks are especially nice to find and the older they are they higher the value.
        If you feel you have a genuinely rare item, you might want to consider an antique appraiser who will do the leg work for you for a fine fee, I'm sure but you'll get a written appraisal that most insurance companies will accept when it comes to insuring the valuables in your home. Most insurance companies will require a rider at an additional premium since you are specifically insuring certain collectibles.
        Last but not least is the worth of anything is only measured by what someone is willing to pay for it. You might think it is worth a fortune and someone else wouldn't give you a nickel for it. This might not be the perfect answers but it will hopefully get you started in a direction or two of learning. Good Luck, Bob Cline

    Reply: 18 Jan 2010 - The sale of the William Brinley collection on Feb 16, 2008 is still in the archives of Proxibid. There are 23 pages with 552 lots listed with photos and prices. Three or four things to remember is that these prices do not include the buyer's fee and the shipping. Another factor is that with the stock market problems, all of this material is soft since this sale. You also had antique dealers who bid and purchased this material for resale on E-bay. This drove some of the prices higher as they did not know what they were purchasing. Granted the rare items still bring a lot of money, but the average material has dropped in price. You will see original Strobrige lithographs offered on E-bay that don't have any bids on them, and only 2 or 3 years ago they wouldn't have any problem selling. But this problem is across the board in the antique market, were the really nice material (top 5% to 10%) still brings all the money, but the average item can be a real bargain. P.J. Holmes

    Reply: 15 Jan 2010 - Could they not try the Circus Fans Association (America) who must have knowledge about the value of circus items? Tom

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3227. Jean Baptiste Breschard, 11 Jan 2010 - I have recently published on my blog information which refutes the current National Gallery of Art identification of a portrait by Gilbert Stuart. Identified as being John Bill Ricketts, who brought the circus to the USA, current evidence and the earliest identification, 1879, indicate that the portrait is of Jean Baptiste Breschard, a partner in the Circus of Pepin and Breschard, 1807-1815. Anyone interested can visit my blog where the misidentification is explained in detail and informational links are supplied. Peter Breschard. Reply to this message, replies go to this board, not to the message sender.

    Reply: 27 Jan 2010 - Among the earliest of photographic portraits of circus people are several images of animal presenter Jacob Driesbach. A long-time collector that owned one of them saw fit to bestow an identification of Isaac A. Van Amburgh upon it, having no knowledge of the actual sitter other than his general notoriety. There is no evidence at hand to confirm that Van Amburgh ever sat for a photographer.
        The late Stuart Thayer had descriptions of both Driesbach and Van Amburgh. He even found a newspaper reference for the session when and where Driesbach was photographed. Thayer advanced a strong case for his Driesbach identification. Despite overwhelming evidence, others interested in photographic materials refused to accept his findings for fear of alienating the collector.
        Thus, the earliest prominent portrait of an American circus owner, as well as some of the earliest photographic portraits of a circus performer are both challenged in their identification. Even with a sound argument at hand, it is often impossible to alter an entrenched mentality until a generational change takes place. Truth falls victim to allegiance, for a variety of reasons, especially in the public eye. Good luck with your establishment of the Breschard identity for the Gilbert Stuart portrait. Fred Dahlinger

    Reply: 13 Feb 2010 - Mr. Dahlinger, The best any of can do is present the most compelling evidence that can currently be found, as well as point out any factual inaccuracies that we stumble upon. I am extremely grateful for the academic tools we now have at hand which were non-existent fifteen or twenty years ago. Google books is most certainly a researchers delight and it has illuminated cross-discipline connections in my research that were certainly beyond my own imagination. Peter Breschard

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3226. Thomas Buchanan, 11 Jan 2010 - Does any one know of a Thomas Kenneth Buchanan, who traveled in the thirties-fifties, with the Clyde Brothers Circus. He was my Aunt's father, born around 1900.She lost connections with him and now is trying to find out her family history. He carried a business card that said "Lawyer". He died in Louisiana, she thinks. email any known data to bachamb1218@aol.com thanks, Bobbie Chambers. Reply to this message, replies go to this board, not to the message sender.

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3225. Charlie Rushworth, midget, 10 Jan 2010 - Hi! I'm looking for any details of Charlie Rushworth, a midget and my wife's uncle, who was reported to be a clown in a circus for many years (I guess in the 40's and 50's) with Great Yarmouth having been mentioned regularly. Any information would be very welcome indeed. Thanks in anticipation. Doug Adams. Reply to this message, replies go to this board, not to the message sender.

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3224. J. T. McCaddon's circus, France, 09 Jan 2010 - I would be grateful for any information about J.T. McCaddon's circus when it was in France in 1905. Thank you! Sincerely. Pierre. Reply to this message, replies go to this board, not to the message sender.

    Reply: 14 Jan 2010 - John F. Polacsek published an article about the McCaddon International Circus of 1905 in the Sept-Oct 1982 issue of Bandwagon, pages 13-20. The issue cover includes an image of the program cover, the name spelled MacCaddon in that piece. The issue is available for purchase from the CHS. Fred Dahlinger

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3223. Marion, NY, 09 Jan 2010 - Does anyone have any old Circus pictures that were taken in Marion, NY? Please contact Ray at: searchrat@aol.com. Sincerely, Ray Tokaya. Reply to this message, replies go to this board, not to the message sender.

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3222. Cullen family, acrobats, 09 Jan 2010 - Does anyone know anything about a family named Cullen who worked as acrobats in the early 1900's? Their names were: Abon Hassan Cullen, her husband Walter Edward Cullen and their sons Edward and Walter H. Walter Edward Cullen was born in England circa 1870. At the age of 16 he was named "Champion Boy Acrobat of the World" & given a gold medal. He was the first person to do a head to head balance forward double somersault & back double somersault on shoulders. He wrote a number of articles on his travels, the training of acrobats & circus life for different magazines & newspapers. When he wasn't travelling he spent much of his life in the States, living in Cleveland, Ohio. Later went into vaudeville, used the name of Frank Gillette or Gillett. He died in 1902. His wife Abon Hassan, worked as an acrobat. She was born in England circa 1870. Also known by the name of Dell Lincoln, when she worked in the music halls. After the death of her first husband Walter Edward Cullen she married Dr. Melville Daniels. Daniels at one time had ran a theatrical touring company and worked as a acting teacher. He was previously married to an actress named Phyllis Griffin, whom he had a daughter by. The daughter was also an actress. As I understand it, both of the Cullen children worked in the circus too. I'd like to find out more on the Cullen sons and what they were doing in their later life. They both changed their surname to Daniels after their mother remarried. What happened to them? Anyone know? Tina M. DeSoto, tmdesoto@verizon.net. Reply to this message, replies go to this board, not to the message sender.

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3221. Barbeau's Performing Huskies, 08 Jan 2010 - In the 1930's my dad, Eddie Barbeau worked for Russell Bros. and met my mom, Katherine M Callaway who was working for Russell Bros. She worked with elephants and I have some pictures of her and the elephant and a clown also. I also have their correspondance with Russell Bros after they married in 1937. If any one has any info or would like copies of anything I have please reply. Thank you, Vicki Barbeau. Reply to this message, replies go to this board, not to the message sender.

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3220. O. C. Buck Shows, 07 Jan 2010 - This great site stirred great memories. I was looking for O C Buck Shows when I saw Ann’s posting looking for her father who might have worked for that carnival. The O C Buck Shows was a carnival that came by truck to Keene, NH, my home town, every year in the 1940’s, during the 4th of July week. How much earlier and how much later, I don’t know. It would locate on lower Marlboro St. in an open field that had been used by light airplanes at one time as a landing strip. I can remember a building and a windsock. Today, that is the location of American Optical and MPB (Miniature Precision Bearing).We kids would watch the trucks roll in and the gang erecting the rides. Those included a Merry-Go-Round, a Whip, a Ferris Wheel, a Bullet, a Swing, another whose name I don’t know but is was on a slant with cars connected and ran at a good clip. There were rides for small kids – cars – and more I’m sure but my old memory has let them slip.
    In addition, the Show had a round Motorcycledrome featuring cyclists circling and riding up the vertical wall with enough speed to hold them by centrifugal force. They put on a good show that included, midway through, a plea for donations because they could not get life insurance because of the great danger (yeah sure!). Customers would throw down nickels, dimes and quarters to the floor – hey! this was the 1940’s, minimum wage – fifty cents! Two cyclists would pick up coins and say, “Thank you.” for each coin. There was a center pole with two kerosene lamps lit in case of power failure during a performance to allow safe descent from the wall. Out front a platform held two motorcycles chained and riding on rollers that the cyclists would mount and gun the motors between shows to run the sirens and draw in the crowd – Wheee!, Wheee!, Whee! The customers stood around the top of the ‘drome looking down. The first time I saw the show I has scared as Hell that they would come over the top and take my head off!
    The O C Buck Show also included a Side Show with attractions like the Alligator Lady, Sword Swallower, Fire Eater (and blower), a Magic Man and other. Large, garish paintings on canvas advertised the show. They were better than the show. Another regular feature was a girlie show – Nope, never saw it. I was too young then and too old now. There were food concessions, sugar candy and pitch shows – “Knock over three kitties with the baseball and win the big, stuffed Kewpie Doll.” Good luck! I’m not sure but I think it included a Bingo Game.
    Every year the Show formed a large, hollow oval. Rides and Side Shows, Motorcycledrome, Girlie show and large concessions formed the outer ring; the middle of the oval held smaller food concessions, the Whip. The Merry-Go-Round, the noisy generator trailer and Mr O C Buck’s headquarters.
    The Show was sponsored by the Keene American Legion whose Ladies Auxiliary would staff the Ticket Booths for the rides. The other features had their own leather, lunged barkers – “For the next ten minutes only I’m goin’ to put away the Adult Tickets and let every one in on a kid’s ticket!” Yep, same pitch every show, every day, every year – that roll of Adult Tickets must have lasted the entire life of the O C Buck Show. You had to pay to get into that Magic Oval – twenty-five cents, if memory serves. Once in, we kids would walk around for hours – even after our paper-route money ran out. It was the highlight of our Summer!.
    O C Buck put on the Fourth of July Fireworks display – pretty puny by today fantastic pyrotechnic displays – but we were kids, it was the middle of WWII, so what if it took five minutes (or so it seemed) between aerial shots. The ground display always included Niagara Falls and the American Flag. One final and loud boom announced the end of the fireworks – loud enough to be heard in West Keene and by Residents of various local cemeteries.
    After Keene, O C Buck Show always traveled to Claremont, NH, where it almost got stuck during the War and gas rationing when the local Gas Board was feeling tight and Scroogy. A cousin of mine who ran a filling station and dispensed, occasionally, Black Marked Gas, for favored customers, of course, on the QT of course, came to the rescue of O C and his Show, thus preventing it having to take up permanent residence in that small, N H town.
    Thank you Ann for your query. [message 2302] I can’t help you much. The only man I can remember well was a strong and heavy set man with dark complexion who erected and operated the Whip every year I attended. His name I know not. Oh yes, the Show continuously played records (loudly – very!) Sousa Marches over and over and over –I can hear them still. I must look for that Carnival Book and find out the the “C” in O C Buck stood for. Good luck and good memories to all! John Nolin. Reply to this message, replies go to this board, not to the message sender.

    Reply: 27 Jan 2010 - An ebay dealer with the identity circusman1940 has been selling reproduction photographs of the O. C. Buck midway. You can contact the dealer via provisions in the website. Fred Dahlinger

    Reply: 06 Feb 2011 - I grew up in Troy, NY. Oscar Charles Buck lived at the top of my street (Point View Drive) with his son - Oscar Charles Buck, Jr. "Bucky" and their nanny/housekeeper Rose Schindler. Bucky was treated like gold and we were best friends for 5-6 years - from 1st grade until 6th grade, when, I think he found some male friends. Every time the carnival came to town, I went with Bucky and Rose. We got a big roll of tickets to use. It was great! I lost touch with Bucky when his father fired Rose and married a much younger woman from the carnival. They moved away some time after that. My mother kept in touch with Rose until she died. We always felt that Rose loved Mr. Buck and thought he would marry her. I am sure Bucky was devastated by the loss of Rose because she was like a mother to him. Mr. Buck was gone most of the time and Rose cherished Bucky. I'd love to know what happened to Bucky. Did he take over the carnival? If anyone knows, please post it. Thank you. Eugenie Foa August

    Reply: 20 Sep 2012 - I attended College in California with O.C. Buck, Jr. (called "Bucky" in a message here) in the mid 1960s. We called him "Chuck" Buck. He was a good friend of mine at school there. This Message in response to a request here for info on O.C. Buck, Jr. Carl

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3219. Rose Killian Circus, 07 Jan 2010 - Dear Sirs, Could you advise me where the Rose Killian Circus was based out of the city & state. My grandfather was a musician with them along with other circuses, and an associate of Karl King. Any help really appreciated. Thanks, Wade Parker. Reply to this message, replies go to this board, not to the message sender.

    Reply: 08 Jan 2010 - While preparing a segment about the Rose Kilian Shows for inclusion in an article about wagon builder Herbert L. Witt [Bandwagon, Nov-Dec 2001, pages 4-11], I did not find any mention of a home base, winter quarters, or even an extended layover location. I don't have many of them, but the available annual winter quarters lists published in Billboard, Clipper and Show World don't list the Kilian show. There are several posted on this website, under the "History" page, accessible on the home page. I don't recall that anyone had compiled routes for the Kilian circus that would reveal a pattern of annual end dates and the locations thereof.
        Having just three or four decorated wagons and a troupe that consisted mostly of family and a corps of long-time dependable friends and associates, there was no real need to take a sustained, winter-long break to rebuild, develop new features, train acts, etc. Repairs could be done along the route, and performers and workingmen came and went. The show traveled throughout the southeast. The Kilian outfit was formed at Monticello, Kentucky in 1905, after the family left the Mighty Haag. In December 1910, Rose Kilian used Dudley, Georgia as a contact point for prospective employees. When the Witt wagons were completed they were shipped to Decatur, Alabama.
        A reference in 1923 stated the show had been operating for seventeen years, without closing. This was a common practice for field shows in the middle 19th century. There was no justifiable reason to enter a wintering phase, which incurred expenses without generating revenue. As an overland troupe playing the hinterlands, Kilian may simply have stopped traveling at an opportune moment in a convenient and welcoming community, taken a short break of a few days, or a week or two, and then moved on again.
        There are photos of the Kilian outfit in the Witt article, and also in Bandwagon issues of March-April 1958, page 3, and July-August 1968, page 18. Rose Kilian was a hard-working, honest woman, raised a large family, successfully operated a traveling show in rough country and faced adversity with a smile. Her story, were it possible to document, would probably prove quite heroic, showing grit, savvy and determination of the first order. As a female proprietor, she should be in the ranks with the celebrated Mollie Bailey.
        If your grandfather was associated with Karl King during his circus years, perhaps it was during his tenure with Sells-Floto or Barnum & Bailey, after which he withdrew from field shows. The Braathen collection at Illinois State University-Bloomington includes band rosters and also compilations by musician's names. Your grandfather might be listed therein. Fred Dahlinger

    Reply: 23 Aug 2010 - I am replying to Wade Parker's question about the Rose Kilian Circus. Rose Kilian was my husband's g-g-grandmother so we've been researching off and on the past 11 years. We have hand transcribed the original route books for several years. We also have copies of pictures from the Rose Kilian Overland Show through the years. What was your grandfather's name and do you happen to have an idea of when he might have performed with the Rose Kilian Circus? I would be happy to glance through what we have. Heather Bracy

    Reply: 17 Nov 2010 - To Heather Bracy. Ms. Bracy, sorry I did not reply sooner, been w/o a computer, but my grandfather's name was Franklin (Frank) Smith Thacker. He was a musician in the circus, approx years were 1915-1924. He played seven brass instruments. He came to Ft. Payne, Alabama with Rose Killian Circus in 1924, where he met and married my grandmother, so we know he was with them in 1924. He was born in Ohio in 1869, traveled to Watertown, Wisconsin, Beloit, Wisconsin, and Calumet, Michigan as a musician. I would be very interested in your research, photos, route maps,e tc. My email address is hpdwp@yahoo.com. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks alot, Wade Parker.

    Reply: 18 Feb 2012 - According to Parkinson's Guide of American Circuses. Rose Kilian operated her show from 1907 to 1930. According to an article entitled "Circuses Sold Concessions to Pickpockets in Old Days" on pages 5-7 of the Dec 1952 edition of Bandwagon, reprinted from an article in the 9 Nov 1950 edition of the Atlanta Journal, "One of the earliest circuses he traveled with was that of Rose Kilian, a tall, skinny woman who could cower a drunken roustabout with a look, or at least with a look and a tent pin, and 'with a heart as tender as a chicken.' Rose had a wagon show. When she neared a town she would halt her red and gold-leafed wagons and march up and down them like a drill master, lining them up for the great parade. And they would roll down the dusty road with a blare of trumpets. There were very few hearts in small towns that didn't quiver in response. Rose would stand in the lead wagon and wave flatteringly to the town merchants, in the doorways of their stores, and call them by their first names, and shout hoarsely, 'Boys, it's even bigger and better this year!'" - Pat
        According to the diary of my great grandfather, W.H. Whitlark, he performed with the Rose Kilian Show the following Georgia dates:

    November 1919, Mon. 17th Appalachee, Tue. 18th Greshamville, Wed. 19th Wrayswood, Thu. 20th Woodville, Fri. 21st Woodstock, Sat. 22nd Maxeys, Mon. 24th Stevens, Tue. 25th Crawford, Wed. 26th Winterville, Thu. 27th Smithonia, Fri. 28th Hull, Sat. 29th Center.

    December 1919, Mon. 1st Nicholson, Tue. 2nd Ila, Wed. 3rd Danielsville, Thu. 4th Comer, Fri. 5th Point Peter, Sat. 6th Aplington Store (?), Mon. 8th Rayle, Tue. 9th Tignall, Wed. 10th Danbury, Thu. 11th Goshen, Fri. 12th Iveytown, Sat. 13th Lincolnton, Mon. 15th Meeksville, Tue. 16th Amity, Wed. 17th Leah, Thu. 18th Winfield, Fri. 19th Appling, Sat. 20th Harlem, Mon. 22nd Blythe, Tue. 23rd Matthews, Wed. 24th Stapleton, Thu. 25th Grance(?), Fri. 26th Edge Hill, Sat. 27th Mitchell, Mon. 29th Chalker, Tue. 30th Warthen, Wed. 24th Davisboro.

    January 1920, Thu. 1st Riddleville, Fri. 2nd Donovan (?), Sat. 3rd Ervings (?), Mon. 5th Oconee, Tue. 6th Irwinton, Wed. 7th Gordon, Fri. 9th Danville, Sat. 10th Montrose, Mon 12th Dudley, Tue. 13th Chester, Wed. 14th Empire, Sat 17th Pineview, Mon. 19th Tippettville, Tue. 20th Richwood, Wed. 21st Lilly, Thu. 22nd Byromville, Fri. 23rd Dooling, Sat. 24th Montezuma, Mon. 26th Ideal, Thu. 29th Butler, Fri. 30th Howard, Sat. 31st Junction City.

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3218. Carlos Fanola, 07 Jan 2010 - Hi, Has anybody heard of a man named Carlos Fanola who died in a circus fire in the late 1800's. I believe he owned the circus and was the husband of my great-grandmother Aguste and the father of my grandmother Bettina Fanola. I believe he was from Brazil and possibly a gypsy. Any help or leads would be great. Thank you, Jim Genzel. Reply to this message, replies go to this board, not to the message sender.

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3217. Ringling circus, 06 Jan 2010 - Will David Larible ever come back to Ringing Bros. Circus? We need now we do not have a star clown. Ringing Bros. needs lions back. Who is the best ringmaster? I wish Ringing Bros. had Billy Martin and or John Kennedy Kane as a ringmaster. Reply to this message, replies go to this board, not to the message sender.

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3216. Clifford Monnett, 05 Jan 2010 - I am trying to find out any information on Clifford Monnett from Greencastle, IN. He owned or operated a circus and/or rodeos. I am his granddaughter (Marcia Monnett Campbell is my mother) and would like any information. I also saw a post from Betty Lunsford Olive. Did she had an elephant act? Linda Campbell Quertermous, Fairfield, CA. Reply to this message, replies go to this board, not to the message sender.

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3215. James Evans, 04 Jan 2010 - I am an in-law grand niece of the late James Evans and would like to know if there are any pictures of posters you may have on his foot juggling career with the circus? His relatives and my grandchildren would love to have this documentation. He talked about owning his own circus and arriving in Mexico only to have it snow and he went into ruin due to this. Is there any record of this? He married May Lyons who's brother or sister was my mother-in-laws aunt. I would be happy to purchase issues where he appears. I am doing genealogy on our family and did a search for is name and came upon this site. Barbara Greck. Reply to this message, replies go to this board, not to the message sender.

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3214. Showmens Club, Hugo, 04 Jan 2010 - Hi, Take a look at our website! The Circus City Showmens Club, Hugo, Oklahoma can be found here: http://familylobby.com/circuscityshowmensclub. Terry. Reply to this message, replies go to this board, not to the message sender.

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3213. Nick Cravat, Burt Lancaster, 04 Jan 2010 - Hello, I am a great nephew of Nick Cravat. My mom is married to Burt Lancaster's son. I have been searching for pics of Nick, and Burt from the days of Kay Bros Circus. My grandmother had a collection, but has since passed, and we can not find any. Do you have any suggestions where to find pics of those days in the circus? Please let me know when you can. Thank you, Johnny "Q" Reply to this message, replies go to this board, not to the message sender.

    Reply: 05 Jan 2010 - You can find an image on this website at: www.circushistory.org/Bandwagon/bw-1966Mar.htm. The original article, as published in the journal, had additional illustrations. You might also search the bibliographies of Lancaster biographies for source materials [Gary Fishgall, Kate Buford]. Cravat's daughter, Tina Cuccia, has a website with an image taken on Kay Bros. of Lancaster and Cravat: http://tinacuccia.com/nickcravat.html. Perhaps contact with her would yield additional images? I'm sure that if you do some further Googling [web, images, video] that more images and information will be found. You can also enjoy six different Kay Bros. posters in the on-line collections of the John and Mable Ringling Museum of Art website:
    http://emuseum.ringling.org/emuseum/view/objects/asimages/search$0040?t:
    state:flow=92432ea4-06cc-425a-b05f-a779c8b79e39
    Also check queries 1354 and 2912 on this website. Buckles Woodcock's blog has some Kay Bros. photographs, posted on November 9, 2008. Fred Dahlinger

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3212. James Harden, 04 Jan 2010 - My name is Kathleen Westmoreland and I was wondering if you can give me any info on a James Harden. He was my grandpa on my dad's side of the family. He was in the circus hall of fame in Wisconsin for being a elephant handler. Thank you, Kathy. Reply to this message, replies go to this board, not to the message sender.

    Reply: 08 Jan 2010 - James Harden isn't listed in Slout's "Olympians of the Sawdust Circle," or "Badger State Showmen," Dean Jensen's book, Gordon Yadon's compilation of circus greats in Delavan, Wisconsin, etc. Can you provide any specific points of information that might serve to initiate a search for him? Fred Dahlinger

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3211. Dorothy Herbert book, 31 Dec 2009 - Does anyone know of a book review of Dorothy Herbert's book: Dorothy Herbert Riding Sensation of the Age? Fr. Dick Notter. Reply to this message, replies go to this board, not to the message sender.

    Reply: 01 Jan 2009 - Sorry, I don't have an exact answer, but you might check with Evelyn Riker. She and Dale, who recently passed away, were responsible for the Herbert manuscript being published. Knowing their comprehensive ways, they might have clipped and held a folder of relevant papers, including reviews. You might also check issues of "White Tops" and "Circus Report" in 2005 and shortly thereafter. Fred Dahlinger

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3210. Trapeze, 31 Dec 2009 - I am trying to find information and photos on trapeze artist who performed with the Barnum Bailey, Hunt Bros., Cole Bros., Shrine Circus and Polack Bros. circus between 1949 and 1953. Her name is Fay Benson she also went by the name Francine Faye. She did a performance Nov. 10-26, 1953 with the Polack Bros Circus (Eastern) in Philadelphia, Pa. Would you have more information or photos on this performance also? Also, could you tell me if you know of an act "The Flying Jacksons" within the same time frame with any information regarding performer George Benson. Thank you very much. Patricia, carmel1198@verizon.net. Reply to this message, replies go to this board, not to the message sender.

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3209. Duncan Summers - Barnum & Bailey, 31 Dec 2009 - I am seeking to learn anything about my g.g.grandfather, Duncan Summers/Somers. According to family lore, he was a band leader for the Barnum and Bailey Circus (or maybe any other circus) from the 1880's to early 20th century. I do have a photo that I believe may have been him. The photo was taken in Creston, Iowa. Any help would be greatly appreciated. wellsbrook. Reply to this message, replies go to this board, not to the message sender.

    Reply: 08 Jan 2010 - The Barnum & London (1881-1887) and Barnum & Bailey (1888-1918) bandleaders are well documented and I don't believe that Mr. Summers/Somers has a place in their ranks. He may have been a musician with the circus, or perhaps a bandleader with another traveling troupe. The Braathen collection at Illinois State University-Bloomington has extensive compilations of bandleaders and musicians and he may be listed therein.
        Creston, Iowa is a city associated with the circus operations of the Taylor family. You can read about them in Joe Bradbury's article in Bandwagon, May-June 1963, pages 3-13. The version that would seem to connect with your great-great-grandfather would be the one operated by F. J. Taylor, Sr. ( -1917), commencing in 1886 and continuing with some infrequency through about 1902. One version was sold to Perry and Matthews in 1897. The Taylor operation was also accorded some coverage in the writings of Orin Copple King, via publication in Bandwagon [issues in 1993-1994] and possibly in a book he published privately. Armond Fields' book about Fred Stone, available partially on-line, also contains some Taylor material.
        Creston, Iowa was also the original location of the Beggs family of wagon builders. Their story is in Bandwagon, May-June 2004. Fred Dahlinger

    Reply: 28 Jan 2010 - An inquiry re # 3209 was made on 31 Dec 2009 regarding Duncan Summers aka Duncan Somers, who may have worked for Barnum & Bailey in the 1880 to 1900 time frame. The Rare Book and Special Collections Department, Princeton University, One Washington Road, Princeton, NJ 08544, telephone #1-609-258-3184 has ephemera regarding Somers and Clark’s Minstrels in their Box #2 Folder #31. This may or may not refer to Duncan Summers aka Duncan Somers. glencar

    Reply: 30 Mar 2010 - I would like to thank the replies which I have gotten concerning my g.g. grandfather, Duncan Summers/Somers. You have provided for me some wonderful leads. As my ancestor, Duncan was a band leader, so it is very possible he was with the circus in Creston, Iowa and then decided to stay. He had gotten into a lot of trouble in Creston in December of 1895 for being an imposter and living with two young girls. The story was carried in eight different newspapers throughout Iowa. (I found these articles on newspaperachives.com website.) During that period, he went by an alias "Harold Land." Has anyone heard of that name in the circus or minstrel business? I have lost track of him after he was released from jail in April of 1896. I have contacted the library in Princeton in hopes they may help with the Somers & Clark idea. Thank you all again.

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3208. Goldie, circus brat, 28 Dec 2009 - Does anyone remember in the early 1920's, a little girl (real name, Alyce) called "Goldie, the circus brat", who was raised in an orphanage, then ran away with her brother to be with the Barnum and Bailey Circus; cared for by August the clown and was supposed to have worked with the elephants, and rode the motorcycles around the spheres in the show. Later, did USO shows with Bob Hope. I heard there was a book written about her, but cannot locate it. Glencat22. Reply to this message, replies go to this board, not to the message sender.

    Reply: 07 Jul 2012 - I know an Alyce (now in her 90s) who ran away from an orphanage with her brother and joined the circus. She tells wonderful stories, some of which are about working with tigers (not elephants) and riding a motorcycle. Sally

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3207. Circus detectives, 27 Dec 2009 - There are many references to circus detectives in historical documents. I am trying to find out if circuses still employ detectives or security officers to travel with them. If not, when did they stop hiring detectives? Looking for firsthand information, links, or other reference titles that talk more about this aspect of circus life. Thank you! Sincerely, T.E. Reply to this message, replies go to this board, not to the message sender.

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3206. Flying Behees, 24 Dec 2009 - Um, Hey my name is Jessica, & I have a best friends who's name is Lexi Behee, and she got me very interested in this. But I was wondering, could anyone give me any information about the third flying Behee that either died, or just quit, because it says that there was a Rose Behee, & a Bobby Behee, & a Clayton Behee, which one died? And does anybody know how, or any other information on him? Thanks! Plz Post ur Replies! Reply to this message, replies go to this board, not to the message sender.

    Reply: 24 Dec 2009 - According to Jan-Feb 1992 Bandwagon, Robert Behee died in 1991. No more information. Judy Griffin.

    Reply: 14 Jan 2010 - Clayton Beehee ending up working as a phone promoter for Bill English in the late sixties and seventies. I would run into him as the billposter for the Hanneford Circus that Bill had put on the road to play arenas under service club, police, sponsorship using phone promotions. We became friends and stayed in touch. Clayton met a lady in Guelph, Ontario and pretty well stayed in the city and ran a permanent phone room year round promoting circuses, magic shows, etc. Clayton died there in the late 1980's. He was a very small man in size, a great twinkle in his eye, and in his old age in a great deal of physical pain from his flying days. His preferred medication was whiskey. Al Stencell

    Reply: 23 Mar 2010 - Further to Clayton Behee: An obit in the Nov. 6, 1974 Amusement Business for Clayton's wife - Felicia J. Behee known as the 'Cuban Fire Cracker" said she died in Memorial Hospital, Sarasota Aug. 30, 1974 -age 37. She was the sister-in-law of Fidel Castro. Survived by her husband Clayton Behee and daughter Paula. Al Stencell

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3205. Jim James, Ruby, 23 Dec 2009 - Does anyone remember Ruby & Jim James who were in the circus in TX & possibly other states? Ruby played the fat lady & Jim was the ugly man. I'm trying to find anyone who may have known them because Ruby was my mothers cousin. Lilly. Reply to this message, replies go to this board, not to the message sender.

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3204. Frank Meeker, CHS, 19 Dec 2009 - Francis L. Meeker, 89, died on November 26, 2009 at Troy, New York. He was a long-time member of the Circus Historical Society (#483) and a member of Circus Model Builders. He and his wife Ruth were lifetime members of Circus Fans of America for more than fifty years, being charter members of the Felix Morales Tent No. 85 of Albany, New York. He also served as the New York State Chairman for CFA. Reply to this message, replies go to this board, not to the message sender.

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3203. Rogers Bros. circus, 18 Dec 2009 - As a young man, fresh out of high school, I worked for several months touring Florida with the Rogers Brothers Circus in 1950, joining the circus in St.Petersburg, Fla., as a roust-about, and later as a animal handler. I would be grateful for any information about this circus, when it was first established, if it is still in existance. My name is William and I live in Cedar Grove, NJ. Reply to this message, replies go to this board, not to the message sender.

    Reply: 22 Dec 2009 - Dear William: Rogers Bros. Circus was owned and operated by Si Ruebens from 1947 - 1953. As you know, it was a truck show operating primarily in the mid-west. Meaningful articles on the specifics of the Show can be found as follows: 1948 - White Tops (WT) Jul/Aug 48, 1949 - WT Sept 49, 1950 WT Sept 50, 1951 - WT May 1951, 1952 WT May 1952 and 1953 WT Jul 1953. You may have the WT's in your collection. I can scan the 1950 article for you should you not have that issue. Of course, the Billboard Magazine of those years will have frequent weekly inputs. On a personal note, I lived in nearby Franklin Lakes for a number of years, perhaps only 20 miles from you. Best, Robert f Sabia

    Reply: 24 Dec 2009 - I'm obliged to Robert Sabia for his swift and informative reply to my message 3203 inquiring about the Roger Brothers Circus. I thank him in advance for his offer to scan the 1950 White Tops article on the circus and wonder if he can provide info on gaining access to the other articles he mentioned. I'm not a circus historian, rather a retired journalist anxious to include in a memoir I'm preparing my experience as a young roust-a-bout and animal handler with Roger Bros in Florida in 1950. Thanks again Bob. Yours, William Gordon of Cedar Grove, NJ. (wmgordon@optonline.net).

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3202. Ron Perry, 17 Dec 2009 - Does anyone out there know Ron Perry who worked in Australia around 1985? I’ve just watched a video I shot of he and his partner, Pam, at that time and am not sure I ever gave them a copy. Neil Barrett, neil@box311.biz. Reply to this message, replies go to this board, not to the message sender.

    Reply: 14 Jan 2010 - Ron perry is living happily in Ottawa, Ontario, Canada. Al Stencell

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3201. Bert & Marie Pettus and family, 17 Dec 2009 - I found your site (and 'Buckles') by accident and it brought back memories of our knowing Bert and Marie Pettus and their family. I did, in fact, find the beautiful memorial to Marie that is posted. I would be interested in contacting any of the family if it is possible. I appreciate that you could not give me contact information but, you now have my email and you may feel free to pass it on. Since we are talking th 1950s and early 60s, It would be their children that might remember me. I thank you in advance for your consideration, David Bowers, agwheels1@aol.com. Reply to this message, replies go to this board, not to the message sender.

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